Episode 13: Spirituality in Leadership

Joining us in circle are Tamara Herl and Judi Neal. These two change-makers share their wealth of wisdom on the importance of spirituality in leadership and the traits that the world is seeking. You want to be on this edge walking alongside these two.  Join in to hear powerful stories and learn the tools to evolve your leadership journey.

What’s in this episode for you:

• The important role that spirituality plays in leadership

• What we are being called to step into as leaders

• The leadership qualities that we need now

• Tangible tools to help hone those skills and ways of being 

• A vision for leadership that we can all get excited about

Poem: Where the Sidewalk Ends by Shel Silverstein

There is a place where the sidewalk ends

And before the street begins,

And there the grass grows soft and white,

And there the sun burns crimson bright,

And there the moon-bird rests from his flight

To cool in the peppermint wind.

Let us leave this place where the smoke blows black

And the dark street winds and bends.

Past the pits where the asphalt flowers grow

We shall walk with a walk that is measured and slow,

And watch where the chalk-white arrows go

To the place where the sidewalk ends.

Yes we'll walk with a walk that is measured and slow,

And we'll go where the chalk-white arrows go,

For the children, they mark, and the children, they know

The place where the sidewalk ends.

Who’s in circle with us:

Tamara Herl is a Licensed Professional Counselor, professionally trained Life Coach, Registered/Board Certified Art Therapist and Certified Forest Therapy Guide.  What sets Tamara apart from other counselors and coaches is her ability to weave expressive practices such as visual art, journaling, and connection with nature into the experiences she facilitates.

Connect with Tamara through, www.becomeyourownguru.com, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Judi Neal is an author, a scholar, and a consultant on workplace spirituality.   After receiving her Ph.D. from Yale, she worked in the corporate and academic world.  She founded Edgewalkers International, a coaching and consulting firm. Judi is the author of eight books on workplace spirituality and transformation, including Edgewalkers.

Connect with Judi through, www.edgewalkers.org, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn.

Pick up the talking piece: 

What came up for you as you listened to this episode? I'd love to hear your experiences with any of the reflections and exercises. Send me an email at podcast@humconsulting.ca or leave a voicemail (click the voicemail button on the right).

Gratitude: 

Circle of Change is recorded on lək̓ʷəŋən territories.

Our opening and closing music was created by the talented E-Rol Beats. You can find his creations at www.erolbeats.com

My fabulous podcast coach, Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions, brought this podcast to life www.organizedsound.ca

Transcript: (Some words may not be accurately recorded. Please let us know if something seems off.)

Change begins from within. As easy as it is to look outside of ourselves and want the world to change, the truth is, it never will if we remain the same. This podcast was created for change-makers like you who want more love and connection in your community. Today you are going to hear stories that will inspire you, and also challenge you to be the change. We are going to go deep, my friend, so take a deep breath and settle in. My name is Ame-Lia Tamburrini - Welcome to the Circle of Change.

Ame-Lia Tamburrini (AT): You are in for a spiritual uplift today, my friend. Joining us in circle are Tamara Herl and Judi Neal. Together, we talk about the important role that spirituality plays in leadership. We talk about the world today and what we are being called to step into. We identify the spiritual qualities of leaders that we can embrace and some tools to really help us hone these skills and ways of being. And then we leave this conversation with a vision for leadership that I think we can all get excited about. If you are at all curious about expanding your ability to lead during this big transformation that we are in, you are going to appreciate the wisdom of these two guides. 

Let me introduce you to Tamara and Judi. Tamara Herl is a licensed professional counselor, professionally trained life coach, registered and board certified art therapist, and certified forest therapy guide. What really sets Tamara apart from other counselors and coaches is her ability to weave expressive practices such as visual art, journaling, and connection with nature into the experiences she facilitates. 

Judi Neal is an author, scholar, and a consultant on Workplace Spirituality. After receiving her PhD from Yale, she worked in the corporate and academic world. She founded Edgewalkers International, a coaching and consulting firm. Judi is the author of 8 books on workplace spirituality and transformation including the book, Edgewalkers.

These two women are at the leading edge of leadership development. I am excited for you to soak in all of their words of wisdom. Welcome to this very special circle that to me felt like sitting by a fire with old friends. Welcome, Judi, welcome, Tamara to circle. We have had the pleasure, I think, of having a few circle conversations already, but this is the first time we're recording it. But I know based on our previous experiences, previous conversations that— Well, I'm really looking forward to where the conversation goes. I have found our dialogs to always be really powerful, and reaffirming, and a little bit magical. So, just so grateful to have you here. 

TH: Well, thank you for inviting us.

JN: Absolutely. It is magical to be with the two of you. And I'm looking forward to it too. 

AT: As we begin, I'd like to read a poem and this is a great time for you and the listener to really just take a deep breath and settle in to this space. The poem is Where the Sidewalk Ends by Shel Silverstein. This is a place where the sidewalk ends and before the street begins. And there, the grass grows soft and white, and there the sun burns crimson bright, and there the moon-bird rests from his flight to cool in the peppermint wind. Let us leave this place where the smoke blows black and the dark street winds and bends. Past the pits were the asphalt flowers grow, we shall walk with a walk that is measured and slow and watch where the chalk-white arrows go to the place where the sidewalk ends. Yes, we’ll walk with a walk that is measured and slow, and we'll go where the chalk-white arrows go for the children, they mark, and the children, they know the place where the sidewalk ends. 

JN: I love that. Thank you.

TH: It’s beautiful.

AT: It’s such an interesting poem. And I’m not sure how it will weave its way into our conversation, but it literally just fell on to my lap yesterday and I thought, okay, I will read that.

JN: That makes me think about is our longing for a different kind of world and maybe a world before sidewalks or a world after sidewalks. 

[0:05:00]

You know, there's something magical, and childlike, and nature connected in that poem that is a part of my longing for what I feel needs to emerge in the future.

TH: I felt something similar, Judi. It reminded me of forest bathing and how important it is to spend time in nature and that when we do so, in my experience, we can become more grounded, and centered, and just more connected of course with nature, but also with others around us. 

AT: Oh, I love that and it just so beautifully speaks to the work that both of you are doing in this world and how you're supporting people to come along in this journey and really bring this new way of being to life. So, there it is. 

JN: And you also. It's very much the work you're doing in the world too. 

AT: Thanks, Judi. 

JN: Yup. We’re in this together. 

AT: Uh-huh. Yes. 

JN: That’s what circles are all about, right? 

AT: Totally. Yes. I love that you’re both very immersed in circle work as well. I think that’s what makes this that much more special, is you bring that essence so naturally to this space. And I know the listener will really feel that as we go along. So, we are gonna talk more about the work that you and I are doing in the world right now. But before we go there, I really like to provide a space for the listener to get to know more about you first. And so, I encourage you to take this question wherever you want to take it. And the question is who are you? And whoever is ready, feel free to speak first. And if you did bring a talking piece with you, this would be the time to introduce us to it. So, who are you? 

TH: This is my talking piece. I can't remember what kind of stone it is, but it's very heavy. And I like it because it helps me to stay grounded and to be in the moment and in circle to speak from my heart and not be worrying about what I'm going to say, but just in the moment speak from my heart. And I consider myself to be a weaver. I actually do weave willows. I’m learning how to do that, but I just weave experiences together for people just to help them wake up their senses and remember what matters most to them. 

JN: Well, I brought this talking piece. This was made for me, and there's little symbols on here that the person who made this for me when into meditation and received these various symbols. And I use it in circle and that's the only time I use it because I'm very aware that it has the power, it takes in the beautiful power and the stories of those who’ve held it. And so, it just shouldn't be used for anything else, but sacred circle. So, it’s really wonderful to have it here. 

And who am I? I did years coaching with a wonderful man named Brian Gorman. And in that process, I looked at what I cared about, and what my gifts were, and what my story of the future is that I want to unfold. And Tamara, you’re gonna love this I do circles, 3 circles that overlapped that had to do with global consciousness, and workplace spirituality, and music, then in the middle was my term for myself “global weaver.” That's my sense of who I am now that there's not any particular expertise that I have. I have dabbled in a lot of different things, but that my role is connecting people to other people or organizations to other organizations so that they know they're not alone, so that together whatever they're doing is amplified and expanded. 

And the idea for this came from reading Marilyn Ferguson's book called Aquarian Conspiracy. And in that book— and this was I think the `70s or `80s she wrote the book— she talked about all the different groups that were forming, just emerging. And some of them had to do with women's rights, and some of them with racial justice, and some of them had to do with climate change, and some of them more spiritual, and some of them more personal growth. And each of them thought that they were the only ones around. 

[0:10:00]

And over time, they would find each other and start to link up. And so, the circles began linking into a network. And she said a real shift will happen when a certain critical mass of those circles link up. And it doesn't have social science research. Well, maybe that’s 10 or 15 percent of the population. It doesn't have to be a huge amount, but it does have to be enough critical mass for things to shift into being a world at the end of the sidewalk. 

AT: I love it. Yes! I brought a sweet grass with me. I love the smell of sweet grass. It's a reminder of qualities of love, and kindness, and humility. These are qualities that I love to bring into the world and especially in circle. I'm a constant learner. And I think that quality of humility helps me to rest in curiosity and see what arises for both me and the space and just to trust that it will all be perfect and it all is perfect, which I love. And in Episode 1, I go into who I am. I answer that question myself. 

But Tamara, I love this word “weaver” and I want to claim that also for myself because I do think I am a weaver of world views. And in circle, I support bringing people together that maybe have different life experiences or different ways of seeing the world and help them see where those similarities lie, but also to celebrate their differences and and cherish those as strengths to move forward and co-create together. So, thank you for gifting us with that word.

TH: You’re welcome. 

AT: Judi, you brought this up already. It feels like we are in this period of transformation right now. It's comforting to me to know that not everybody has to do. It’s like that 15% mark. I’m like “Oh, okay, that's achievable.” No problem. But this period isn’t really comfortable for many people. And I'm curious about your reflections, what you've been noticing in your world. So, what is it that you're witnessing in communities, or the people, or organizations you serve in this period that we are currently in right now? 

JN: You know, I think that the main thing that I'm witnessing is that people and groups are wanting to play a bigger game. Individuals have had a mission or a sense of purpose and somehow that for each person they feel like they're being called to more and sometimes that’s scary because they don't feel capable. The question is like how do I do that? How do I take on whatever this is that seems to be calling me? And I love to quote Peter Block who wrote The Answer to How is Yes. 

AT: I love that.

JN: The answer to how is yes. And he says when we say how, we’re actually making a statement of disempowerment. It was kind of like “Oh, I don't know how.” And instead, it’s like “Well, of course, you don't know how because you're doing something that's never been done. So, there is no how yet. You've got to make it up as you go.” That seems like a real theme for individuals. And then for the organizations like— For instance, I'm a part of a group called The Management, Spirituality, and Religion Interest Groups at the Academy of Management. The Academy of Management is a professional association for business professors. 

So, we have this group that focuses on the spiritual aspect of management and what do religions and what do faith bring into the conversations around management. So, we're kind of a fringe, radical, interesting, thought provoking, pioneering group. So, the group has in the past looked at how do we impact the field of management and how do we impact the academy to have more of a legitimization of conversations around spirituality and consciousness. And what I'm seeing like in this last year is that's not enough. We have to take on social justice. We have to take on women's rights. We've got to take on climate change. We have got to look at the planetary and humanitarian issues in our research, in our teaching, in our volunteering work. It has to be bigger and it has to be greater numbers of people because things are urgent on the planet right now. 

[0:15:05]

Tamara, what are you seeing?

TH: Well, I agree with what you’re saying and I’m thinking of— I believe it was Sarah Khan who said the earth hurts, it needs healing, it’s speaking to us, and it’s speaking the most loudly to those of us who are the most sensitive. So, definitely, I think we're sensitive to things like climate change. And I think we're sensitive to other things as well. I'm seeing so many people. I'm just beginning to start to work more with managers and leaders, but really leaders I think are at all levels of organizations. 

And what I'm seeing a lot of is people who are being asked to do hero work every day. I mean, hero work is great. You know, we love to really pour ourselves into a good cause. But when it's expected day after day after day, it just becomes so draining for people. And I guess a lot of people are struggling with that. And so, I'm inviting them to take time to reflect, take time to nurture themselves so that they can be open to guidance that they can receive to help them come up with the solutions that we need so desperately. 

JN: I have to introduce you to a woman named Sami Aaron in Missouri. She runs an organization, a nonprofit called Resilient Alliance. And this organization is a spiritual support organization for activists. I think the two of you have a lot in common. And I forget what certification you have in forest work. 

TH: Oh, I'm a certified forest therapy guide. 

JN: Okay. She is too. 

TH: How nice.

JN: Yeah. Yeah. So, there are some things in common. And this is what circles do, right? 

AT: Connecting the threads, weaving. Yeah. I really relate to what you're both saying, Judi, this piece of playing a bigger role. I think that has been coming up in some of the circles I've led too. I’ve recently facilitated a discussion on how do we bring truth and reconciliation into our work as facilitators, teachers. It was a group of facilitators and teachers. There was this question like what can we do and a sense of responsibility that we are in positions of bringing people together and having conversations and what is it that we can do in those spaces that advance this conversation and healing process because I think, Tamara, you alluded to this maybe that that pain, that discomfort that people are feeling— 

For me, what I'm really seeing in my communities or the communities that I'm working with in is all this unhealed trauma that is present and it's showing up in all sorts of ways like perfectionism, and caretaking, and needing to please, and avoiding our feelings. And we're not necessarily skilled at recognizing what's going on and being able to step forward in that. I think that unhealed trauma piece is really resonating with me in how do we— me, as a facilitator, how do I support that in the work that I do creating safe spaces for people to gently and self-lovingly step forward on this path, but doing so consciously. 

JN: Ame-Lia, are you also looking at collective trauma? 

AT: Yes.

JN: Because I don’t know much about that, but that’s a thing I hear about a lot.  It’s inside us as individuals, and inside our communities, and inside our teams and groups. All of these phenomenon seem to be happening across all these levels. 

AT: So true. And I know you brought in the planet and the earth, and both of you are deeply connected to that. And I think that too is a form of trauma, how with this period of industrialization in how we've just so stepped away and really detached from our relationship with the natural world around us and how that too is traumatizing for us. 

TH: I think one of the most powerful ways that I have found to address the unresolved trauma is through internal family systems work or parts work as it's known. And I love, Ame-Lia, how you said the goal is to lovingly create safe spaces and notice when we're showing up in ways that are not in alignment with our values. And what I love about internal family systems or parts work is that the goal is to help people gain access to and live from what's called self. It's like the connection to the divine that's within each of us. And a fascinating thing about it is that you can heal generational trauma.

[0:20:02]

So, it's a powerful model that I think would be worth. If people don't know about it, I would encourage them to check it out. 

AT: Tamara, thanks for giving that resource. When I think about the work that you're both doing and the work that I am also doing, we're really supporting leaders and changemakers, whatever we wanna call them, to show up in the space, meet the needs of this period that we're going through in a way that honors who they are at their core, who we are at our core. And one reason why I appreciate our conversation so much is that spirituality plays a central role in not only who you are and how you show up, but also in how you support people and bring people along on this journey. That's also new for a lot of people and can be really uncomfortable to be like “Woah, we're talking about leadership and spirituality? Like do these things really go together?” 

It's not necessarily been the way that we have viewed the world or a lot of people have viewed the world, but I really appreciate that you're leading the charge in that and bringing us back to those roots. In the work that you're both doing with leaders, organizations, changemakers, what are some of the qualities that you're helping people to really tap into and why are these qualities so important right now do you think in this period that we're in? 

JN: Maybe I could talk a little bit about some research that I did on leaders. In fact, Tamara really supported this work. The researchers on leaders who have a very strong spiritual life and who are very effective in business and I started doing research in the 1990s on these people. So, even back 20 years ago, there was very few people talking about spirituality and leadership in the same breath. The basic assumption was if you’re spiritual or religious, you're not grounded. You’re in some fairytale world, you know, the woo-woo world. That was the word often used to put down someone who wanted to express this deep central part of who we are as human beings.

So, I would find people who were very effective and didn't fit that model that people are afraid of, the woo-woo, and interview them. And the qualities that I found across these hundreds of people that I talk to, first of all, was a high sense of self-awareness and a real commitment to doing self-awareness practices. So, that might be journaling, or therapy, or spending time in nature turned out to be one of the biggest ones. So, that was one of qualities that when I work with leaders now, I ask them “What are your self-awareness practices and what do you wanna build on? What do you wanna strengthen?” Sometimes I have ideas of things they haven't tried before. 

Another quality is being very visionary. And that poem was so vision— I mean it created a visual image of a world that, like I said, I felt like we long for that world. And so, these leaders have visions. Literally, they may do vision quests or some kind of practice where they are from the divine given some kind of vision or they may just in the rational mind think about the future and what wants to emerge and creating the container for that. Also, really high integrity. That's a very, very important quality. To know what your values are and to as much as possible live in alignment with them. So, in supporting these leaders, I help them with their values clarification. And I look at what values they want to live more and how they can live those more. 

One of the other qualities that surprised me was playfulness. Each of these people had some sense of humor, and spontaneity, and even silliness at times. I mean a CEO of a newspaper— I write about him in my book, Edgewalkers— walked into a board meeting that I was sitting in on because I was doing some work on total quality management and that was one of their topics. And there was no seats. So, he walks over to the phone. I think everybody thinks he’s calling for someone to bring in a chair. And he goes over the phone and he talks to somebody quietly, puts the phone down, and he stands there for a minute. The phone rings and he picks it up. And he goes “Oh, Bob, it’s for you.” And Bob comes up and gets the phone. And this guy goes and sits in Bob’s chair. Everybody burst into laughter. It was a great meeting. So, you know, there's that quality in there too. 

[0:24:56]

And then the fifth quality that I found was connecting. And we could use the word “weaving” now. The real weavers that they see connections between people and organizations and between unusual ideas, they’re just always looking at how does this fit with this. There's a sense of, you know, those wonderful, beautiful, big puzzle in the world that we each bring something to that picture and so wanting to fill in the pieces of the puzzle. So, those are the qualities that I see in and try to support in leaders. 

TH: Those are beautiful qualities, Judi. Thank you for sharing those. So, connection is one of the ones that I am helping or encouraging leaders to develop. There are 8 qualities of self from internal family systems that I like to encourage leaders to develop or that I like to support them in building. And connection is one of them. So, I won't talk about that one. Calmness is one. You know, just encouraging people to be able to come from a place of calmness when they're facing challenges. And curiosity of course is another important one. So, you know, just getting curious about why is a person behaving the way that they are, or what else could be true in this, or what else is possible, which ties into the visionary quality that you mentioned. 

Compassion I think is so important. Compassion for one’s self when we don't show up the way that we want to and also for people like a supervisor-supervisee relationship. So, instead of judging a person for what they would say that they're not being productive enough, instead of judging them for about, just getting really— trying to have compassion for what might be going on in their life. 

Creativity is another one that I think is wonderful to encourage in leaders because sometimes when we can get creative in trying to solve a problem, it can just be so helpful. I remember when I was working in a mental health organization, we had a staff person that she wanted to get back to work, but she had some kind of back problem. We have this art cart that had to be pushed around and she couldn't push it. And so, we got together and we were brainstorming. I supervised two departments at that time. And somebody from [0:27:29][Inaudible] therapy department said, “Well, why don't we just store the cart on the unit?” And I was like “Oh, my, you know, why didn’t I think about that?” But just creative thinking was so helpful because that way she was able to come back to work. 

Another quality that I think is really important, that's one of the C words, is courage. Courage to try things different and to do things that have never been done before. Caring is another one of the C words of course. Really caring about other people in the world and being willing to pour our hearts into something that needs to be changed. 

And then the last one is clarity. If a leader has clarity about something and this ties into, Judi, what you were saying about integrity. If you have clarity, if a leader has clarity about something, then it’s important to share that clarity. Those are my words that I like to use. 

JN: I love those and I particularly love clarity. I have a friend that runs our local peace center. She was talking about clarity as if clarity was a female companion recently. And so, we started calling her Sister Clarity. It’s time to call in Sister Clarity. 

TH: I love that.

JN: Yeah. The embodiment of that clarity that is such a gift when it comes.

TH: Definitely. Ame-Lia, what are some of the qualities of leaders that you think are important.

AT: Oh, yeah. I mean it all relates. I love that we are using maybe slightly different language though. I think there's a lot of beauty in that. For me, personally, where I'm being called into right now is supporting leaders to increase their emotional awareness, develop a new relationship with emotions really, and start to see emotions as a guidance system and nothing more to sort of take that fear away, how do we start living with that guidance system essentially in a new way. 

The trauma informed work is also very important. And I think I take that language from the restorative justice work I do, but really helping people reframe their interactions and instead of asking what's wrong with you to ask what happened to you. And Tamara, you brought that up in your work as well. And then from there, moving into the skills of communication. How do we start to communicate from our hearts versus our heads? Connect with people in that way. 

[0:30:00]

And then from there, what's the vision? What's the vision and how do we bring that forward? And that speaks to the new possibilities and that creativity and even playful pieces like what is possible. Sort of dropping this whole framework of the past and working from the past to the future, but just saying, “Okay. From here, knowing what we know now and being who we are, more heart centered, what is possible and not necessarily attaching it to the past because I think that can be limiting in some ways.” Those are the parts that I've been, yeah, exploring and working with some leaders on right now, but it all relates to everything you’ve said. I think we’ve just used different ways to describe it, which I love. 

In the work that you're both doing, is there— And Tamara, you’ve already mentioned one tool to help people sort of re-envision lives and what's possible, but what is one tool, our way of being that really can support these visionary leaders going forward to help them step into this new way of being? 

TH: Oh, the internal family systems. That is just so helpful because think of it like a bus. So, we all have different parts. We were born with them. And then as we encounter different experiences throughout our lives, new ones develop. Then we also have self. Self is not a part. It’s an aspect of us. It's like the essence. So, self can never be damaged and is whole and resourceful. But when we show up in ways that we don't want to, we can stop and say, “Okay, who's in the driver's seat right now?” 

It takes some self-awareness like, you know, is it my victim heart? And if it is, how can I tap into self to find out what does my victim heart need in order to heal and let go of the trauma and the burdens and become instead of something that's holding me back or making me show up in ways that I don't want to, how can I tap into self and help the victim part let go of that role so that it can become an ally? So, when we are able to heal these wounded parts of ourselves, we call them exiles and parts worker (IFS). But when we’re able to help them heal, then we can show up even stronger. So, it's an incredible tool. 

AT: Can you also speak to forest healing tool because that's so much of what you do as well as just immerse in nature? 

TH: Well, there are two practices that I really love. The first is called the pleasure of presence. It's easy to do really. It's fun when you have someone else guide you through it, but you can learn to do it on your own. And that just simply involves going out in nature. You can stand or you can sit. And you just start using all of your senses to just really notice what sounds am I hearing. Both the obvious ones and the ones that are more subtle. And what am I smelling? And you can even be like a dog and smell in different directions. Smell to the right, to the left. What does the ground smell like? So, you do that with all of senses. Even like drinking in the air to access your sense of taste. So, that is just so powerful. 

And just sometimes we forget what it's like to have pleasure. So, if there's any pleasure that you experience while you're doing that, they invite you to just drink that in and just welcome that and just allow yourself to have the pleasure. So, I love that one. And then the other one that's really simple to do is called what’s in motion. It made me think of that when you were reading the poem because she said there is a light about measured walk or measured walking. That's exactly what we do in forest therapy. So, you walk very slowly. 

In fact, it's so funny. When we were doing the forest therapy training, people, they would walk by and they would look at us. They would go “what Kool-Aid did they drink” or “what are they on” because we looked so strange because we were just moving very slowly and looking with eyes of wonder at things that we've never seen before or had forgotten, but you just do that. You just walk very slowly and you just notice who and what is in motion around you. And it really helps you to slow down and really be present in your body and just notice the exquisite beauty that surrounds you and just like snow melting. I mean who would think to sit there and watch snow melting? Those are both beautiful practices.

JN: I'd like to build on that from something a Buddhist teacher taught me at a nature retreat. And she said, “You need to tell Ranger Rick to be quiet.” And Ranger Rick is like “Oh, look at the oak tree! That's different from that maple tree. Oh! And see the blue bird.” And it’s the naming of things. And the naming of things gets us into our left brain and into the linear thinking when the goal is presence, which is our whole self. That self that you talked about, Tamera, I think with like a capital S. 

[0:35:13]

It's like the essence of who we are and words get in the way of that. A practice I try to do is I have my own Ranger Rick, and I probably would call her Professor Judi. Professor Judi having been, you know, professor in universities and business schools for a long time like has all these theories, and ideas, and books. And you know, I can offer all these resources and I'm not being present when I'm doing that. I’m an ego and it’s fine to share resources. But when I do it to keep me distant from someone else or to protect me so that I am not vulnerable and real, then Professor Judi gets in the way. It’s another version of Ranger Rick. If I hear Professor Judi start talking in my head, it's like “It's okay. Be quiet. It’s all right. You don't need to offer that right now. Just listen. Just be quiet, and listen, and notice what's present and be with that.” That's something that I personally find helpful. 

Another tool that I use is one that I use with groups around change processes. Ame-Lia, you talked about what do you do about people that don't see change in the same way that you might see it. And I’ve named 5 archetypes of change, different ways people respond to change. And I’ll just say them very briefly. And what I'll do is put people in circle. Well, let’s me say what the five are first. 

The first one is edgewalkers who eat change for breakfast. They love change. They wanna initiate change. They get bored if things aren't changing. The second one are flamekeepers. And flamekeepers will change as long as the founding values are really in place. They’re values centered. The third are hearthtenders. And hearthtenders like to get the day-to-day work done and be very efficient and care for the good of the whole. Very service oriented. And then there's a placeholders who want stability and keeping things as they've been traditionally. Really into tradition and stability. And then the last one I used to call doomsayers I now call guardians because that's a little healthier sounding. And they're the ones who look at what could go wrong. They’re visionary, but they’re visionary from fear and from a sense of protecting from some things that could go wrong. 

So, what I'll do is ask a group to sit in like 5 different places. So, first of all, sit in the edgewalker chair and talk about this change from an edgewalker perspective and then move over in the circle and sit in the flamekeeper chair and talk about change from the flamekeeper perspective. And then everybody gets to sit in each of the chairs and talk from each of those perspectives. So, in a way, it's parts. And the thought for that came from vision council native American practices and then just putting it in this particular model of the archetypes of change. I think that really helps people to broaden their own view of a particular change and to understand other people's perspectives that might be different from theirs. 

You know, I tend to come from the change. I eat change for breakfast perspective. And my husband comes more from the placeholder perspective. And I could see him as like “you're blocking change”, “you’re too resistant” and have all these names and concerns that this person is slowing me down. And instead, I can see “Oh, this person's providing stability and this person's keeping change from going over the edge too much.” They can be a moderating factor. And so, there's values in each of those perspectives. I find that that's a really helpful tool for talking about impending change in an organization or a planned change. It broadens people's perspectives. That's fun. AT: I so appreciate what you both shared and could easily riff off that for a really long time. This whole getting present in nature that brought up the story for me, Tamara, where for a period of time I dated a hiking guide. We had beautiful, beautiful expeditions in nature together. 

[0:39:58]

And so often, I haven't really named this quality of me, but maybe I'll call her Anxious Ame-Lia or Neurotic Nancy— offense to the Nancys out there— where we would be walking along in this beautiful setting and it was like everything would just be going through my head. I'd be analyzing our relationship and is he talking, why is he not talking, I should be talking. And then I would be like “Well, what’s next? What are we gonna do when we get to camp?” And planning. And he would be walking along. And then all of a sudden, he would just pause and he'd taken this flower. And I would get annoyed ‘cause he’s not even listening to me. You can imagine this. And I got to a point where I started to really envy him. I was like how is he so present right now in this space. So, that’s just a story that came to me. And now, I think I'm happy to say I am more that other person more often where I am now the person who is taking in things and probably being quite annoying to some people that I hike with. 

TH: Maybe they'll be inspired and they'll change. 

AT: There you go. That’s right. That’s right. And Judi, I love what you said do. I do a similar exercise in my work where, yeah, I help people step into different perspectives and see a project from different viewpoints, but I love this part around really honoring our diversity. Not being so scared of it, but just recognizing it that, yeah, we have a natural way of showing up in the world and that can actually be a strength if we change our view about it and learn to accept it. 

JN: Absolutely. Everyone has a gift.

AT: Yes. Yes. I love that. Both of you, I see you as visionaries, as edgewalkers. So, I am curious in terms of your view on the world right now and your vision of the future of leadership. Do you hold a vision of what leadership is going to be, what it is becoming? 

JN: I do. My vision of leadership that I see unfolding and I dream it into being that it will be much more widely manifest is this spiritual or consciousness way of being. Maybe to use Tamara’s language, the leaders really know that core essence himself, that part that can't be wounded and trust it. They also trust their connection to whatever they might call the divine or the transcendent and are guided by it and able to really use the language around consciousness, spirituality, faith, or religion if that's their particular path in a way that allows for the diversity of other perspectives. 

I think the resistance to this conversation about spirituality in the workplace over the years is a fear of religion and not even religion. Nothing wrong with religion. A fear of proselytizing and of having one right way and one true belief that everybody must kowtow to. That's not gonna be functional. And any organization that attempts to do that, unless they're a religious organization, but a corporate kind of organization needs to be supportive of everybody’s spirituality, including those who don't have the language or propensity for it. 

So, my vision is that especially corporate leaders and government leaders have more of the spiritual perspective and that it's really tied into environment, and the climate change, and to Mother Earth, and into social justice. Into these bigger issues that as they work on their own consciousness, on their own spirituality, they come to see the woundedness of the planet and they find their own calling around where their contribution is. And they allow others and support others in doing that. The long term vision is peace on earth. No more wars. The Mother Earth is nurtured and nurturing. And the children never have to be afraid. 

TH: My vision is for leaders to all be self-led with capital S. And what that would look like would be upper management level meeting in a corporation, say that the leaders would all feel safe enough to if someone is showing up coming from a place of fear that they would just say to the other one “Gosh, it sounds like you're coming from a place of fear.” To just name it. And also in meetings where supervisor and supervisee, the same thing, that the supervisor would have compassion and be able to say, “It looks like you're coming from a place of whatever.” 

[0:45:07]

And all leaders in governments, whatever, if we could all just live from cell, then the world would just be such a different place. So, that’s my vision. 

AT: Amazing. My heart feels so warm and nourished with what you both said. And I hold both of those visions for you and for me as well. For me, when I think about it, I see an ecosystem is the future and that's how we lead, really honoring all the different pieces and parts in how we work together with more synergy. I would like to end with one question and this can be just a few words if that feels right for you. This podcast is ultimately about supporting people to be the change. I won't define it because that's really the question because I know that it means different things to different people. And so, I'm curious from your perspectives, what does being the change mean to you? 

TH: For me, it means living your values and not waiting for someone else to do it. We're the ones we've been waiting for. 

JN: For me, it means being truly present with whoever I'm with and that they feel loved and expanded as a result of our interaction. 

AT: Yeah. I love it. I think my definition continues to expand, but it's combining both parts and it's that taking responsibility and knowing that in every moment we have an opportunity to be the change and so having the presence to be clear on the intention of any action, any interaction. Tamara and Judi, my heart is full. I am so grateful for your presence in my life and on this podcast in the circle today. You've both been mentors to me. I've learned so much from you through our dialogs and that was no different today. So, thanks for gifting us your words and your presence today in circle. 

TH: Welcome. Thank you for the work that you do, Ame-Lia, as well as Judi.

JN: Yeah. Thank you. Ame-Lia, the thing that gives me hope about the planet and the vision is the young people and people like you who are creating as you go. Not following some old paths, but allowing your heart to follow whatever wants to emerge, and taking on leadership and building community. I’m also grateful for all you do. 

AT: Thank you so much. 

JN: And it's wonderful to share the space with my dear longtime friend, Tamara. This was really sacred circle. Thank you so much. 

TH: Thank you both and many blessings.

AT: I'm now passing the talking piece to you. If you feel called to put your voice in the circle, please head to www.humconsulting.ca/podcast and share your story there. I cannot wait to hear what has come up for you as you have listened to what has been shared here today. I wish you love and joy beyond your wildest imagination. Thank you so much for being here in the Circle of Change. 

I also want to express my gratitude to the following peeps: Circle of Change is recorded on Lekwungen territories and I am so grateful to live on this land. Our opening and closing music was created by the talented E-Rol Beats. You can find his creations at erolbeats.com. And special thanks to my coach, Mary Chan, of Organized Sound Productions for bringing this podcast to life.

Until next time, Ciao.