In last week’s podcast episode, I had the honour of interviewing two amazing leaders from two First Nations communities in Canada, Sunny LeBourdais and Qwastanaya (L. Maynard Harry). In this episode, I share some of my reflections on the important concepts my guests spoke of and how we can begin to decolonize our ways of thinking and being.
What’s in this episode for you:
Exploring a common source of tension in multi-cultural interactions - time
One way to gain momentum toward change - slowing down
An approachable way to conceptualize the process of decolonization
Tools for change:
Challenging time - Start asking yourself and your teams - If we remove this pressure of time and timelines, what would we be doing right now? If this timeline wasn't here, what would this project call for in this moment?
Comfort with discomfort - Raise your awareness of what feelings you might be avoiding and how. What are your avoidance patterns? We all have them.
Building the muscle - Where can you get stronger in the journey of reconciliation or lifting up others? Education, listening, finding a support, starting a conversation in your workplace or friend circle? What is YOUR why for doing this? What is the vision you are working toward?
Pick up the talking piece:
What came up for you as you listened to this episode? I'd love to hear your experiences with any of the reflections and exercises. Send me an email at podcast@humconsulting.ca or leave a voicemail (click the voicemail button on the right).
Gratitude:
Circle of Change is recorded on lək̓ʷəŋən territories.
Our opening and closing music was created by the talented E-Rol Beats. You can find his creations at www.erolbeats.com
My fabulous podcast coach, Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions, brought this podcast to life www.organizedsound.ca
Transcript: (Some words may not be accurately recorded. Please let us know if something seems off.)
Change begins from within. As easy as it is to look outside of ourselves and want the world to change, the truth is, it never will if we remain the same. This podcast was created for change-makers like you who want more love and connection in your community. Today you are going to hear stories that will inspire you, and also challenge you to be the change. We are going to go deep, my friend, so take a deep breath and settle in. My name is Ame-Lia Tamburrini - Welcome to the Circle of Change.
Ame-Lia Tamburrin (AT): Hi friend, I'm so glad you're here with me today. I truly do feel connected to you, and I hope you can really feel that. In so many ways I do see you sitting in circle with me, and it's just very meaningful to have you here. Taking in these stories these words and then sharing with me your own thoughts, or just having space in time for you to also reflect on these words, it means a lot. This community means a lot. I have been thinking a lot about the conversation with Sunny and Maynard from our last episode, our last circle. And there were so many poignant sentences, concepts, ways of thinking that have really stuck with me, and they've trickled into so many experiences I've had in just one week. In one week I facilitated a dialogue on inclusion and diversity in a community that I really love, one of my entrepreneurial communities. I just started planning another dialogue on reconciliation with a group of facilitators and how it is we bring that to life in the work that we do. And then of course I've had my community projects, which are focused on and centered in this working in two worlds approach with indigenous communities and then government and non government organizations that are not indigenous. And so much of what Sunny and Maynard, said just really came to light for me in new and beautiful ways. So I'm still very grateful for that conversation and I know I will continue to be, but I, in this episode I just wanted to bring a couple of thoughts forward, and also see what your thoughts are, what you've been reflecting on.
To start I want to just put some attention on this word Indigenous that I keep using and I use it a lot in the last episode. For me and my brain, Indigenous refers to the broad groups of First Nation, Métis and Inuit populations in Canada. And I know that when I use the word Indigenous it really is that pan Indian approach that Sunny spoke of in our, in our circle dialogue, and that it misses out on so much uniqueness and beauty and intricacy of all the communities and nations, and the cultures. And I'm, I'm just very cognizant of that, of course, and I don't have a better word at this moment, and I'm going to keep my ears open to hearing perspectives and ways of communicating. I think for some people, this concept is hard to wrap our heads around because, especially I'm thinking people like white people that live in North America that, and that have maybe never traveled to other places. For me, this concept, you know, has made a lot of sense over the years of working within Native and Indigenous communities across North America and overseas. And I think a way that I can speak to it in a way that might be relatable is, you know, when I go to Italy, like for example, just like any, any community anywhere else in the world. Italy comes to mind because, well, it's part of my heritage and I've been there a number of times. And I'm learning Italian right now so it's on my brain. And so, if you go to Italy you know every region you go to has a different dialect - so different language, they have different food specialties, they have different festivals, different ceramics, they have different building structures and ways of celebrating and artwork, like all these things are so unique to each village and people are passionate about the differences, right. And it's the same thing in our Indigenous communities. And I think it's hard sometimes for us, white people who grew up here, or anybody that grew up here in North America and didn't really get to experience our ancestors that also lived in those sorts of environments. Like for me, my ancestors are all overseas, and you know I didn't understand or have never experienced the different regions of Germany, and I know Italy a bit deeper than that, but this is not unique to Indigenous community and it's just something that really strikes me and how, you know, how much more respectful we can be if we really truly honor those differences and don't make assumptions before we walk into communities and assume the artwork over here it would be respectful for the artwork here or the ceremonies here and there, just really walking in with curiosity and asking questions and learning before we even arrive. I think these are just really important qualities, just like we would do if we were traveling overseas or just like I will do if I travel overseas, so I'm going to start there.
The first point that I really wanted to speak to though was this concept of time. And time is one of the biggest points of tension I find in the current work that I do when I'm working with Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities, but often we have government structures or bodies or corporations that come in with a specific timeline. They have an outcome that they need, and then we kind of work backwards and just sort of construct the project to get ourselves to that timeline in the time that they need. And then we continue to run all of our meetings and all of our activities based on this timeline and when we get off the timeline, there's a lot of tension that rises and we try to just get back onto the timeline. So in these cases, there is a tension that is there. Rarely do I find that we stop in those moments and really pause and ask, why is this timeline so important. Who is this agenda, serving, who is it benefiting and what harm is it creating if we just keep plowing forward. I think, ultimately, when we show up in these ways which are just our ways of being that are so ingrained in us, and I'm speaking as a white person who has been part of the dominant culture. When we do this, it really prevents you, sometimes from making the huge quantum leaps that are required to make real change, to make policy decisions that really address core needs versus band aid solutions and we know band aid solutions are so much more costly in the end, and also so much more harmful, in the end. And so, what is another way that we could be, that we could address this concept of time, in a way that does not lead to those things. What if we were able to walk into a meeting and be very clear on the intention. And we came equipped with a really good set of questions, and created a safe space and then we just saw what happened. And there needs to be other sorts of little things in place to make sure that that runs smoothly and safely, but that's what we did, there was no desire to get to a certain point by the end of the meeting. This meeting didn't have to lead to the next meeting. We just waited to see what were the outcomes, what were the teachings, we reflected on them and then collectively decided on okay what is the next best step. So this is really a step by step approach versus a mechanized approach. I think ultimately this whole concept of time and having agendas and sticking to them is a way of expressing control. It's a reflection of our collective uncomfortableness with uncertainty. And I think if we do really want to get to a different place that we, we need to get, to get squiggly with that get uncomfortableness, and try to really ask these questions. So one question that I've been asking myself a lot when I feel this tension arise is okay, if we remove this pressure of a timeline, what would we be doing right now? If this timeline wasn't here, what would this project call for in this moment right now? That may be a question that you want to play around with in the projects that you're in, where this is coming up for you.
The second piece that I want to touch into is this whole concept of taking pauses and of course this relates to what I was just speaking of, but in our dialogue with Maynard and Sunny Maynard said this thing and he repeated it a couple of times, and I'm going to repeat it again because I just love it so much. He said something to the effect of, you know, when you, when you encounter these things when you read these things don't flip to the sports page and I think what he was saying there is just be with that for a second, take it in, put yourself in somebody else's shoes in that moment, and feel what that's like. So often we don't do that, because we are so uncomfortable with what would happen if we did feel. Again that's a bit of the uncertainty piece but it also speaks to our relationship with emotions, in general, you know, we start to feel uncomfortable and we run and bolt and we do that in so many different ways. We get angry and we project, we avoid through all sorts of behaviours, binge-watching TV, overeating, indulging in substances and talking nonstop. There are so many ways, we're very creative beings, that we engage in avoiding our feelings, and it's really become sort of a survival mechanism for us, but we know by now that that way of being in the world actually causes harm. And so to be a different way, to not just flip to the sports page, we have to get more comfortable with being in the uncomfortableness, you know, and that that requires certain skill sets, that requires emotional intelligence, it requires us to really conceptualize emotion in a different way, the way it was intended to be as a guidance system, and nothing more than that. And to ground ourselves into a deeper way of understanding about why this is so important for us to open ourselves up with imagination to the possibilities of what might our world look like if we just stopped avoiding all the uncomfortable emotions and we were just able to be, to be with the truth to process it and to figure out what to do after that. It was so interesting, Maynard said this and then I was in a bookstore a week later. And we pre-recorded, so this was a little bit ago. I was in a bookstore and this woman was in there buying a newspaper, and the person selling her the newspaper said, Oh, just to warn you, the first five pages are all about the children being found at the Kamloops residential school buried, and the response was, Oh, thank you so much for letting me know, I'll just skip right to the section I need. And there it is, that's exactly what Maynard said, don't flip to the sports page, well that's exactly what was being reenacted right there and it just really indicates again that, that discomfort we have. And I speak to this with experience, I speak to this with a lifetime of avoiding emotions, ignoring them, and running from them and when I woke up and realized that all that did was lead to harm, to pain and then eventually illness, it motivated me to do something different about it and the result of that has been transformational, like I do not recognize myself or my life from even five years ago. And when we all go through this collectively, everybody benefits - all people and our earth. So it's so worth it. So again, just something to consider is how can you get more comfortable with those uncomfortable feelings, those uncomfortable emotions that come up. And can you just start to raise your awareness of when you might be avoiding. What are your avoidance patterns? We all have them.
The third thing I want to touch on, and then I'll leave it at this is the whole concept of walking on two legs that Sunny brought up. I absolutely loved the way she spoke about this because it's so tangible, it's so graspable. Essentially what she said and you can please and please just go listen to her words in our last episode, but the whole concept was that, you know, that one muscle, the Western muscle, the Western way of seeing the world it's so built up. And so strong right now. And I would also argue that that's the same is true for masculine ways of being in the world, that our masculine ways of being, Western way of approaching life and policy and how we show up - those muscles are so strong, but the muscles that represent Indigenous ways of knowing and being and governing and also our feminine ways of being and knowing and governing, they're very underdeveloped, because they have been suppressed, put in a corner, and essentially told to shut up. But those muscles that represent our Indigenous ways of being and our feminine ways of being are so underdeveloped. And that's a huge problem. This is simply a fact of where we stand today, and how we are standing. It's actually a really great visual. If we think about it as walking on two legs, where we've got this super muscular built up leg and we have this super skinny, underdeveloped leg. What does that mean, like just think about it in that analogy. I mean, we're walking really funny right now, we don't look very healthy, we're kind of limping around and when we do that for an extended period of time, I know this as a kinesiologist and I know this from observing many people and myself being injured, that when we do that our hip gets put out of place and then our knee goes out and then our back is screwed up and then we're spending like our whole life, repairing, having surgery and then healing from that, and it's the exact same thing except the consequences are so much graver. Addiction and poverty and climate change and lives being taken, not to mention how suppressed, our economy is. And I'm going to touch on that a little bit later, but looking at it through this lens of walking on two legs I think is really brilliant because then we can maybe start to think about solutions in terms of okay, well, how do we build that muscle up? Can we conceptualize our decolonizing process as a way to build up the other muscle that has been so underdeveloped. And so, I don't know, I'm going to put some thoughts forward to work with this analogy.
So I think first of all if we're going to start building up muscle we really need to learn effective ways to train. We also need to get real about the state of things like okay, well, what does this really look like, what does it really mean, what does it feel like? And then once we get there we can start training, maybe we found a trainer, we found some support and we can start to read and listen and learn and find safe spaces to explore. This is us finding a gym and a trainer. And when we started training, it's important that we go at our own pace. You know, I think so often we get wrapped up into what everybody else is doing and where I should be and listening to what others are telling us about what to do. But for those of you who are, you know body aware and have gone through your own training processes you know that you have to do it in a way that is right for you, at your pace and so I think that's just a great analogy, learning, for all of us to take into this process of decolonizing. And then the third concept that is so relevant to building muscle is that there is pain in growth. There is pain and growth you know if you've ever gone to a gym and I avoid lifting weights for the most part, it's not something that I really enjoy, although I know it's something I should do. But the times that I have done it, you know I go into the gym, I lift some weights, and like the day after, but especially the day after that I’m in pain, I'm sore, I can barely brush my teeth. But from a kinesiologist perspective I know that I'm in pain because there are so many micro tears going on in my muscle, but when those micro tears heal my muscle is so much stronger, and it's bigger. So the pain is required. So that's probably a good indication for us to know that if we're doing this well if we're doing it effectively if we're not going through periods of being uncomfortable, then we're probably not really learning, we're probably still in that comfort zone that is probably representing a colonial way of being, you know, we have so many blinders about this and I’m continuing to learn this more and more and more. And it's not going to be fun all the time, it's not going to be comfortable all the time, but it's so important to get to the vision. Get the vision board in place, put the picture of the super muscular person in front of you to see what you are headed toward and when we speak of this and in lifting up feminine ways of being and lifting up indigenous ways of being, you know, we, I don't even think there is a vision board that is possible to represent the beauty and the possibility that will exist, you know, you think just the economy, alone, and Maynard spoke to this a little bit in terms of, you know, what will happen when indigenous communities and people are actually able to effectively participate in the economy, because up until now, that hasn't even been like an option, because of our, the Indian Act essentially, because of this policy that still exists in Canada, but oh my goodness, when that indigenous and feminine muscle is fully developed, you know, your mind is going to be blown. If you thought we've had a strong economy at some point in our history. I think we have zero idea right now, the amount of abundance and beauty that is going to exist when these individuals, these cultures are healthy and in a beautiful position of strength and leadership. We have no idea, but it is gorgeous. It is absolutely gorgeous and I know that in all of my being. I think that when we collectively let all birds fly freely, that we are all going to be lifted up beyond the horizon and get to see this thing that is breathtaking. That is beautiful beyond anything beautiful that we've ever seen before. I know that to be true in my heart. So that's where we're headed. That's why all of this work, this pain, this uncomfortableness is worth it. And I know that you too have to find your own reason and I think this will continue to come as we keep exploring and diving into these topics and uncovering together, so please stay here, stay with me, stay in this circle, and let's see where we can go one step at a time, one conversation at a time.
I'm now passing the talking piece to you. If you feel called to put your voice in this circle, please head to www.humconsulting.ca/podcast and share your story there. I cannot wait to hear what has come up for you as you have listened to what has been shared here today.
I wish you love and joy beyond your wildest imagination. Thank you so much for being here in the Circle of Change.
I also want to express my gratitude to the following peeps: Circle of Change is recorded on the Lekwungen territory and I am so grateful to live on this land. Our opening and closing music was created by the talented E.Rol Beats. You can find his creations at erolbeats.com. And special thanks to my coach, Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions for bringing this podcast to life.
Until next time, Ciao.