Listen to learn…
- What it is like to identify as an Indigenous person in Canada
- What reconciliation is and what it is not
- What is required to truly bring reconciliation to life
- Hope for the future and what to expect from future leaders
This conversation was recorded before the May 29th news release that 215 Indigenous children were discovered buried outside the old Kamloops Residential School. This school is located on Sunny’s traditional territory. This tragic reminder of Canada’s past and present racist policies is a wake-up call and a call to action. For many Canadians, this is the first they have learned of the shocking practices of our country and the church. I hope this conversation furthers your learning and inspires you to learn more. Thank you for your courage to be here and listen.
What is reconciliation? I can’t think of a better time to ask this question and listen for the answers. In this circle, we are joined by Sunny LeBourdais of the Pellt’iqt te Secwepemc Nation and Qwastanaya (L.Maynard Harry) of the Tla’amin Nation to hear the stories of their communities, the brave leadership work they are doing, and the hopes for the future.
What I have learned about reconciliation is that it must start with the truth. In this conversation, you will hear the truth in very clear and direct ways. This experience is both an education and a call to action. Please take care of yourself as you listen in, and know that by letting these words soak in and change you, you can make a difference.
What’s in this episode for you:
9:55 - An opening passage by Richard Wagamese
11:40 - Be inspired by learning about these courageous leaders and the change they are making in their communities
19:35 - A better understanding of what is needed to create real change in Indigenous communities and the role of leadership in that transformation
27:08 - A way to reframe the concept of governance in a way that decreases conflict and division
29:15 - How intergenerational trauma interferes with the ability to deal with conflict and why social media is contributing to divisiveness
35:30 - How non-Indigenous people can support healing and understanding by doing their homework
39:40 - Why Canada is one of the most racist countries in the world and a call to action to change our systems
48:15 - Some tangible and actionable definitions of what reconciliation means and what it does not mean
1:03:45 - Hope for the future and the new leaders that are bringing reconciliation to life
Poem: Excerpt from Embers, by Richard Wagamese:
Unity cannot exist when exclusion is allowed to occur. I was graced with this teaching years ago, when I was working as a traditional elder’s helper. The teaching was given in the context of the sacred pipe, but its intention was to help me understand community. What brings us together cannot exist in the same time and place as what keeps us apart. You. Me. Everyone. My choice is to be aware of our similarities: our yearning for truth, peace, love, belonging, welcome, grace, mercy, a god of our own understanding and at least one moment of real contact at the heart of every day. Seeing that, I am made more, included, extended and in harmony…until that moment when I no longer see.
Who’s in circle with us:
Qwastånayå (L. Maynard Harry) is a former Chief Councillor of Tla'amin Nation, where he served 4 terms as councilor. He is the Primary Signatory on the 2003 Community Accord (Tla'amin Nation/City of Powell River), and recipient of Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal and Freedom of the City from the City of Powell River. He is the Manager of, Aboriginal Rights and Title Department for the Tla'amin Nation and a partner with Advanced Business Match. Maynard is also a student bag-piper.
Sunny LeBourdais is a member of the Pellt’iqt te Secwepemc Nation (Whispering Pines/Clinton Band of the Shuswap Nation). She believes our greatest strength comes from helping each other, as declared by the Chiefs of the Interior to Sir Wilfrid Laurier in 1910: “These people wish to be partners with us in our country . . . we will help each other to be great and good.” Sunny has managed and coordinated businesses and projects for the Okanagan, Ktunaxa, and Secwepemc Nations. She facilitates community-based development of strategies and decision-making processes that respect the inherent responsibility to manage activities on traditional territories. She is currently the Director of Transformation for the Qwelmínte Secwepemc Government to Government LOC where she strives to effect change through the development of collaborative inter-jurisdictional processes that give due recognition to Secwepemc laws, traditions, customs and land tenure systems.
Learn more:
Tla’amin Nation and City of Powell River Community Accord
Pick up the talking piece:
What came up for you as you listened to this episode? I'd love to hear your experiences with any of the reflections and exercises in this episode. Send me an email at podcast@humconsulting.ca or leave a voicemail (click the voicemail button on the right).
Gratitude:
Circle of Change is recorded on lək̓ʷəŋən territories.
Our opening and closing music was created by the talented E-Rol Beats. You can find his creations at www.erolbeats.com
My fabulous podcast coach, Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions, brought this podcast to life www.organizedsound.ca
Transcript: (Some words may not be accurately recorded. Please let us know if something seems off.)
Change begins from within. As easy as it is to look outside of ourselves and want the world to change, the truth is, it never will if we remain the same. This podcast was created for changemakers like you who want more love and connection in your community. Today you are going to hear stories that will inspire you, and also challenge you to be the change. We are going to go deep, my friend, so take a deep breath and settle in. My name is Ame-Lia Tamburrini - Welcome to the Circle of Change.
Ame-Lia Tamburrin (AT): Hello and welcome to this very powerful circle experience on a topic that is near and dear to my heart, reconciliation. Today you are going to hear the stories from two leaders who are really doing the hard work every single day to bring reconciliation to life and the work that they do in their families and in their own personal lives as well. Very specifically, they are going to be sharing with us what their common cause for concern is right now in their communities. They are going to speak to reconciliation. What does that mean and what does it definitely not look like. We are also going to understand more about what to consider when working alongside Indigenous communities, and I know many of you are doing that right now. And then we're going to hear some beautiful examples of change that are giving these two leaders hope at this time.
1:55 For those of you who this is your first time delving into reconciliation and colonial history and present day practices of Indigenous communities in Canada, this is going to be a lot to take in, you're going to probably be overwhelmed at all of the information and I encourage you to stay present with us in whatever way you can, whether that is taking this episode in in chunks, or just taking a break and coming back. If you're already well versed in reconciliation and colonization, I guarantee you're gonna learn something new in this dialogue. And if you identify as Indigenous, then, well I hope that you do hear some of your story reflected here. I also hope that you share with me afterwards and this goes for anybody, anything else that has come up for you maybe you did not hear your particular story reflected we would love to hear that, because it will shape our future episodes on this topic. This is absolutely just the beginning. So much of this dialogue delves into the colonial practices that still exist today and the impact that that is having and what I have learned is that there is no other place to start, but there, we really have to hear the truth so that we can walk in with our eyes wide open, and come in with compassionate hearts and humility to work together to create change. So that is where we are starting today. This is an honest and direct conversation. It is uncomfortable at times. And it's so incredibly powerful. It is nothing short of an education, and a very strong call to action. So thank you so much for being here for being part of this circle experience with us. And without further ado I'm going to introduce to you, Maynard and Sunny.
3:58 Maynard Harry is the former chief Counselor of the Tla’amin he actually served four terms as counselor there. He is the primary signatory on the 2003 community accord between the Tla’amin nation and the City of Powell River, and I highly recommend looking at this agreement, which is included in the show notes as a beautiful example of a respectful relationship between a municipality and a nation. He is the recipient of the Queen's Diamond Jubilee medal and freedom of the city award from the City of Powell River is a manager of Aboriginal rights and title department at the Tla’amin Nation. He's also a partner with Advanced Business match which is a wonderful organization that is bringing together Indigenous community with service providers who are really deeply committed to building relationship with Indigenous community and helping them with economic growth, Maynard is quite an encyclopedia of knowledge, he has over 25 years of information about Indigenous culture and heritage economic community in business development, intergovernmental relationship building, leadership and governance, Treaty Negotiations Aboriginal rights in title, the Indian residential school system, the Indian Reserve System, the federal Indian Act, and reconciliation. And beyond all that he is also a student bagpiper, and in our circle dialogue, he actually brings these out for us and it's a very fascinating story about how he relates this hobby with his own journey of reconciliation.
5:40 Sunny LeBourdais is a member of the Pellt’iqt te Secwepemc Nation, she facilitates community based development and strategies and decision making processes which respects the inherent responsibility to manage activities on traditional lands. SUnny has managed and coordinated businesses and projects for various nations in the Okanagan Valley, she led the corporate restructure as COO of Skeetchestn Indian Band’s Economic Development Company. She has helped synchronize Secwepemc communities on BC Hydro and private energy projects. Sunny has worked as Columbia watershed coordinator for this Secwepemc Fisheries Commission, and as a policy analyst for the Okanagan Nation Alliance. Sunny developed coordinated and implemented the Stk’emlúpsemc te Secwepemc Nations Project Assessment Process for the proposed KGHM Ajax mine projects which was a copper and gold mine near Kamloops, BC, that is where I got the pleasure of meeting Sunny. Sunny served as an adviser to the Canadian expert panel for the legislative review of the environmental assessment process and BC Indigenous EA implementation committee lending her expertise in Indigenous impact assessment and Indigenous governance. Sunny also led the Secwepemc Nation building initiative working as the governance director, striving to rebuild, restore and breathe recognition into Secwepemc laws, jurisdiction and government systems. Sunny is currently the Director of Transformation for the Qwelmínte Secwepemc Government to Government LOC where she strives to affect change through the development of collaborative and inter jurisdictional processes that give recognition to Secwepemc laws, traditions, customs and land tenure systems. Sunny is, well she's brilliant. She has a Master's of Science from Simon Fraser University in 2006, and a Bachelor of Science and a Bachelor of Education from Thompson Rivers University in 2001. She also has an Aboriginal Business Management Certificate from the Sauder School of Business. Lastly, Sunny believes that our greatest strength comes from helping each other, and you're going to really hear that in how she is and her words and the stories that she shares with us today.
7:56 Welcome Sunny, welcome Maynard, it is really such a delight and an honor to have you both here in circle and to get to connect with you in this way. When I think of both of you, I think about innovation, I think about courage and I also think about leadership. I know that both of you have led change processes within your communities and with others in a way that has really resulted in bringing people closer together, and also bridging worlds. I really think that you have helped all of us to better understand the colonial history of this country, the impact that that has had on all of us, but also done the work to chart a new way forward. I think that work is so challenging. It takes so much innovation, it does take courage, not only just to do it but to bring people along on the journey in a way that is okay that people do want to come along in that way with you and I think that the work that you're doing is really transforming our world to make it more honoring, more respectful and more healing, and I'm so grateful that you're here on this podcast today.
9:08 So this episode is the first of the circles that I've had with other people beyond just me and the listener. And I honestly can't think of a better topic and better people to launch this endeavor because reconciliation is really at the core of what I do, and the skills that it requires, I think are the skills that our leaders are really needing right now and they are seeking to transform the world. And I know that they're seeking it because I just sent out a survey to ask, what do you want to listen to on this podcast and reconciliation came to the top of the list. So I want you both to know that so that you know that by sharing your stories today that you are making a difference with your voice. So, again, just thank you for being here.
9:55 I want to start the circle, open it up by reading an excerpt, and I don't know if either of you have this book, Richard Wagamese, Embers. I take this book with me everywhere, and I find that, I don't know, in some way, he just speaks to my soul. But I picked up one of his excerpts to start us off today. And then we will begin. So, the listener, please feel free if you're in a safe space to just pause for a second. Take a deep breath Sunny and Maynard, you're welcome to do that too. And just take in these words, and let them open you in some way.
Unity cannot exist when exclusion is allowed to occur. I was graced with this teaching years ago when I was working as a traditional elders helper. The teaching was given in the context of the sacred pipe, but its intention was to help me understand community, what brings us together cannot exist in the same time and place as what keeps us apart. You, me, everyone. My choice is to be aware of our similarities our yearning for truth, peace, love, belonging, welcome, grace, mercy, a God of our own understanding, and at least one moment of real contact at the heart of every day. Seeing that I am made more included, extended, and in harmony. Until that moment when I no longer see.
Thank you Richard for those words.
So the question who are you is one that I'm going to be asking all podcast guests in circle going forward. I love this question because you can really just take it wherever you want to take it, so that, that'll be the opening and if you did happen to bring a talking piece with you, feel free to introduce that, as well as you go along.
Qwastånayå (L. Maynard Harry) (MH): 12:02 Hello, everyone. I'm Maynard Harry, my traditional name is Qwastånayå. I am a member of the Tla’amin Nation. I'm a former chief Councillor elected, and elected to four terms of council for my community. I'd like to introduce my talking feather. We use this for the Advanced Business match uncensored component. And we use the uncensored sessions to bring people together, non-Indigenous people, alongside Indigenous people to talk about and clarify misconceptions about who Indigenous people are, where do we begin the challenges we face that talk about issues that are really really relevant to Indigenous peoples in Canada. It’s a very very complicated history. I'm a member of the Tla’amin Nation. It’s a treaty nation, we negotiated the treaty with Canada and British Columbia. And back in 2016 I believe we made a statement in the region, nationally and provincially. Very very important step of negotiating a treaty was a very very courageous step, we just, it's, it's going to shape who we are as a people. It's going to lay out different opportunities and different challenges for us so it's going to be an exciting road, it's a very divisive issue, my community, spent many, many years negotiating a treaty, we're going to see where it takes us. It'll probably be too good places because we have a lot of young people, like any First Nation across Canada, our population is very very young. For some reason, I think every Indigenous community has an average age of about 25 or 26 years of age and in Canada and British Columbia that at that average age is like 40 or 41 years of age. Very very different but very very prevalent, very very relevant, there's an opportunity there. I'm a partner with the Advanced Business Match, we bring Indigenous communities and mainstream business together to talk about economic development. It is an in person event and a virtual event, we’re developing ABM online program. Right now we have 110 individual events planned in the works and schedule. Very, very exciting to work on this program, it's a national program. We make phone calls every day to many many First Nation communities Indigenous communities and non-Indigenous businesses. I'm also the founder of a company called Indigenous Insight, which is probably really relevant to what we're talking about today. The heart of what I do is, I guess would be reconciliation, I think that's probably one of my passions is to talk about who we are as Indigenous peoples today, in 2021, where we've been looking at Canada's history, British Columbia’s history, issues around leadership that issues around just talking about coming together. For me reconciliation is very very important, and it's very exciting to see what people actually get what reconciliation means, and not just talk about but to demonstrate, so critically important. That's me.
Sunny LeBourdais (SL) 15:20 Thank you so much, Maynard, that is a tough act to follow. But (Sunny introduces herself in Secwepemctsin). My name is Sunny LeBourdais and I am from the Secwepemc Nation which is in the interior of British Columbia. I was born and raised on the Whispering Pines Reserve north of Kamloops B.C, but my traditional territory, actually surrounds the beautiful Clinton area out of a little area called Eight Mile, and Pellt’iqt actually is the People of the White Earth. So my ancestors are actually from quite a distinct and different area. My father was chief of our communities for, you know, over 30 years why we have a very very small community so very much raised around and really built my life and a lot of my foundation on those kinship relations that we have between the different families of the Eight Mile and People of the White Earth. And looking around now I definitely see all of the strengths and just a lot of the resiliency that was really apparent in that kinship network that we had within our interconnected network of families there, and now that I'm a mom and I have a teenager, and I'm looking to the rest of the world, I think I look at myself and I looked at my history, coming out of a lot of the very real intergenerational impacts of colonization and look to be and build that light for how we move forward, which not only recognizes and honors the past, and our ancestors, but also in moving forward, how do we do that in a way that inspires change, and that helps people will really build that from a very internal or that sense of, of wanting it to live inside of them. So I know that now looking at a lot of the young people through our nation, one of the pieces that really feeds my soul at this point in time in my life, is the development of an internship program that I've recently had the honor to kind of build as part of my current scope of work and kind of build and pass on, and support those young professionals in moving forward. So I think that that together with seeing, you know, just all of the, the change in nation building that's going on within my nation, really helps me as a Secwepemc person to realize that there is a path forward, there are opportunities for change. We are and can be a part of that. And that is the future that I want to see for my son and so that is something that I work on every day to ensure that, as he moves forward in this world that it is going to be a better place, and that he doesn't have to fight the same fights that I did, or, you know my father or my grandfather did, and that at some point, hopefully in the future we won't have to worry about that anymore. You know just reflecting on that home in that sense of unity and unification through similarities or looking to each other. There are so many so many reasons in this world right now that people love to divide us apart and right now, I think part of who I am and what I'm doing is very much grounded on finding those common values, but also those threads of connection between ourselves and future generations, but also never forgetting those connections those ancestral threaded connections from out past as well.
AT: 19:30 Beautiful, thank you both for sharing. One way to really deepen our understanding of each other, is to tap into something that I think we all share as, as humans, and that's our fear. And so this next question really kind of goes there. And again, this could be related to just the truth, I guess, whatever, whatever it happens to be for you in this moment so the question is, what is it that is keeping you up at night? I feel like this isn't such an interesting question for people like yourselves that are trying to implement change in the world, but you're also parents and community members, and siblings, and daughters and sons and so, again, this question could be just so multifaceted so what is it that is keeping you up at night, right now, if anything.
MH: 20:33 I'm going to be put on a very loaded answer,I think the lack of leadership. I'm a very political person on a local, regional, provincial, national, international level and I watch politics on TV, especially with all the things that are going on, things are available at our fingertips so a lot of really interesting, really concerning stories, social media on the news, particularly here in Canada in the US and I really try to relate to what we're going through here. Everybody is going to COVID, and everybody has exhausted by what's in front of us. Since March, February of last year, I think about all the things that we've been faced with. And COVID has really brought people together, because it's the same challenge, right across the globe. For me, what keeps me awake, many things keep me awake at night, I think, what jumps to mind is very loaded, the lack of leadership. I think in Canada, I would like to see more leadership at the MP, MLA local levels, but I think about change. I hear a lot of rhetoric, I hear a lot of talk, I hear a lot of ideas, concepts and words, to me those being little unless you actually demonstrate change. And I think there's a lack of demonstration, there's a leadership vacuum at many, many levels in Canada. And I'd like to see a change, I'd like to see leadership step up. I'm not sure if democracy is the way forward because democracy has not worked well for Indigenous peoples of Canada. I think it's, it's put a type system in front of us that forces us to identify leadership this way. Regarding the Indian Act, the Indian Act tells us how to elect democracy. I think we can make it work, we will make it work, we have been making it work. But I think that leadership needs to step up to affect change. I know for a fact that we have good leaders out there, excellent leaders and there are dynamic leaders out there, I know that myself. I know that my generation is not as healthy as my daughter's generation. My generation, like Sunny mentioned went through some things and the generation before mine. They fought many battles that made my generation easier to function in today's society. I look at my daughter's generation and I see some of the battles that I've had that may have allowed her to have a better opportunity and being competitive in today's environment. I'm proud of the relationship I have with my daughter, who's 20, her name is Ace she's a recent graduate of Pearson College, very proud of her. She's a classical pianist, and is enrolled in the piano program at Camosun college, but I compared generations to me I'm a very visual person. I need to see things I need to feel things I'm tired of hearing things. I'm tired of hearing ideas I want to see people do things that affect change. I want to see people in leadership positions affect change by just the swipe of the pen, things they talk about being a role model, and, and actually using their political power to, to actually start movements that are positive. To me, demonstration is movement momentum energy it's, it's all that stuff, but we need to see demonstration. Like for example, the biggest challenge in First Nation communities is developing our economies and moving away from the Indian Act of the Indian reserve system, but I would challenge any political leader to tell me, how would you get rid of the Indian Act or how would you get rid of the Indian reserve system. That piece of legislation at an institution that has kept our people down, it's forced us to segregate, it's forced us to live under a racist type of law, and I'm interested, my community was successful in getting rid of the Indian Act, successful in negotiating the treat. I mean the answer I've just given it to you but I need leadership to understand the challenge that First Nations Indigenous peoples have been faced with, I challenge them to understand who we are as a people because my culture has been attached for 200 plus years and I'm feeling the effects of that attack today by the 1200 people that make up the Tla’amin Nation on the Sunshine Coast, we're feeling the effects today we've been forced to live on any Indian Reserves since 1888, we've been segregated from the neighboring municipality and the reasons behind that segregation are affecting our economies today. So I challenge political leaders to understand Indigenous people and really come up with an answer as to how to move new relationships between First Nations and provincial governments and the federal government together because they have to negotiate, Nation to Nation, my community was successful in doing that as have other Nations like the Nisga’a People and the Tsawwassen people, and Maa-nulth People on the west coast of Vancouver Island, they negotiate new agreements with Canada, and British Columbia. Other Nations out there, the nations in the territories have negotiated these agreements, but I think for a relationship between First Nations and other levels of government to move forward, they need, these relationships need to be developed, meaningfully and not so one sided, where the province has reaped all the benefits or Canada has reaped all the benefits. First Nations have been on the wrong end of the equation for many, many, many decades, and it’s time for that to stop because our people are tired of dying poor in a rich land. British Columbia has to stop being so corrupt. Canada has to stop being so complacent at avoiding the land question. Very complicated issue, but it's a very loaded answer but it's very pertinent and relevant to who we are as a people, we've faced these challenges head on, we're developing, and our kids will not stand to see these opportunities go by, they will get an answer from other levels of government. They're too smart, they're too dynamic and they're too educated and too healthy. Change will come, regardless of whether you see or Canada wants it, we know where Aboriginal rights and title exists, it's been declared in the Supreme Court of Canada, and they will get to a combination. I just hope they work together. For me, it's communication, respect and acknowledgement, you take those principles and you demonstrate them. I think really really good things will happen.
SL 27:10 Yeah, I think I would maybe build on, on some of the pieces that Maynard has started already. One of the things that definitely keeps me up at night is this work that we do around what I think has been called quote, unquote governance, so that work that has been done, you know, we've heard him speak about this whole aspect that democracy does not necessarily work for us. I honestly don't know if it really works so great for the rest of society either at this point, but I do think that, especially in the microcosms of very small populations, when we have this abject implementation of democracy through the Indian act, it doesn't serve our communities, it certainly hasn't. And now we see of course within a much more contemporary context, this development and recognition of traditional or ancestral governance structures. So one of the things that keeps me up at night, is how do we go from being, you know, governed under a democratic system, and take those steps towards the recognition standing up in that respectful recognition of the traditional governance structures or roles which are very different from one nation to another. And this worries me for a couple of different reasons. One is, there seems to be this concept that it's all or nothing, or that you have to be in one or in another, and I just don't think that that serves us to look at it that way. I think that there are graduations, I think that there is a spectrum. I think that there can be an iterative process to recognize what's fair and we feel coming out of the impacts of the Indian Act, and really standing up at the same time that recognition of traditional and ancestral governance, because this has been portrayed or communicated at largest being of one or the other, or very much also portrayed in the news and in social media as being two systems that are at conflict or in contradiction to one another, that that also helps to lead or helps to support further conflict in our nations, and one of the things that I know is going to be very important for all of our nations moving forward right now is really reacquainting and us learning and experiencing figuring out how do we as Indigenous people, how do we as Indigenous nations, deal with conflict within our own nations, also with other nations as well. But I think that historically those impacts of things like residential school, and the 60’s scoop, have really all left this, this massive scar in terms of our skills and ability to deal spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically with being in a place of conflict. I think that there are a lot of individuals that are in some level of healing, when it comes to learning how to be a conflict and that it is okay to be in conflict with another individual with another organization with another group. And so that is one of the things that keeps me up is how are we going to not only support that healing within individuals, within groups, within nations communities, families, and all those other aspects. As we move forward because we're asking so much of our communities right now, and not necessarily giving that purposeful and comprehensive support that they may needs to take on that healing, at a family level, at an individual level, so that they're really coming into conflict or into transformation or transition in a very firmly founded and grounded way. If we ask people to transform when they are either in an, in a negative or in a bad space or they're not prepared or don't have the skills or supports, then I think that that's really unfair on us to ask them to step into an arena when they're not ready for that and I think that that really is a disservice that we would do to them, as well as to any processes or aspects that we might be asking them to engage with us. So that certainly is one really big thing that keeps me up at night. I would say the other piece that really keeps me up at night is probably social media. I'm not a big fan of social media and if I'm super honest, it just really worries me between looking at media and social media. But looking at people across the globe, and just really, really concerned at how disconnected individuals and families are from the land, how disconnected they are to the place in space that is supporting their being, and how disconnected they are to each other. So that's another aspect that really does keep me up at night, I do think that that is a very significant hurdle in terms of how we move forward, how we transform this world into a place that we want to see for those future generations.
AT: 32:56 I so appreciate what you both shared. I think first of all it's really such an education to the listener and to myself included, in terms of the, really the legislative world that Indigenous communities in Canada, have had to navigate that no other communities have, really, and I know Maynard, you bring this up in your Indigenous 101 in that, like, you hold a card in your wallet that identify’s your culture, your race and no other group can say that in this country and I think that is something that really sticks with me, because it is it is a huge differentiator, you know we all have traumas that we have in our upbringings and stories that we have been told to diminish who we are and our well being and all of that, and we have not had, and sorry when I say we, I'm speaking as a non Indigenous person, not had a government, a legislation, policies also saying all of that, you're not good enough, change who you are, we don't want you here, like this is not your land, and taking it away and I think that that's really important for people to learn and that's something that I continue to understand on deeper and deeper levels, as I do my work. Sunny, I can really relate to the thing that keeps you up at night around how do we build the capacity for people to step into these challenging conversations when there's so much unhealed trauma. And how do we work within that context, and honor that. And so we're not throwing people into the fire and expecting so much, when they're, like you said there's already so much being asked. And I would also say that that relates a lot to the non Indigenous population too, I think in general, we have just not been taught how to shit down and speak from our heart. We have not created spaces for that to happen and that relates I think to your social media aspect is, as well as we are not speaking from our heart when we are engaging on social media for the most part. And all that does is perpetuate fear and lead us down a path of, you know, that we, we've just been for so long. And, yeah, maybe I'll leave it there and move to the next question, but I just really appreciate both of you for sharing what you have just shared.
35:36 The next question, it stays on this theme, it dives a little bit deeper because I do really want people, the listener today that is taking this into understand what it is like to be an Indigenous person in this country today, because I think we, there's a tendency to think residential school in the past, 60’s scoop in the past, all the atrocities of the medical system in the past, I just want to get real about that in a lot of ways. And so this question is, what is one thing and I know we can probably talk about many but one thing that you really want the listener, who's tuning in right now to know about what it is like to be an Indigenous person in this country today.
SL: 36:19 One of the things that I find that as an Indigenous person right now that I am constantly battling in this country or in society at large, is a lack of understanding when it comes to how complex and how independent the different Indigenous peoples, or nations are across Canada. You know I cannot tell you how many times I have had to explain that we didn't live in teepees, and I don't, you know I appreciate inukshuks, and I appreciate, you know, there are so many other beautiful forms of art, ways of knowing and understanding the world from other nations, throughout Canada, but that we as Secwepemc People we have our own ways of knowing and understanding the world. We have our own ancestral knowledge, our connections to place, our own art, our own ceremony, our own laws, and they are very distinct and different. Our own language, this, this whole idea that there's this pan-Indian approach to approaching Indigenous people that, you know, you know they're going to walk in with, you know, some West Coast art, which is beautiful, but they're going to bring it and you know somehow connect it to Secwepemc people directly is, you know. I recently went through an entire process of around helping a principal from a local high school understand why it was not appropriate to put a totem pole in front of a high school in this Secwepemc Nation without the appropriate protocol, or even to ask about how appropriate that was for being within our nation, because we do have our own ways of expressing welcome and our own forms of art, our own forms of ceremony and dance and song and all of those different aspects. So I find that being an Indigenous person, you know, a lot of the times, I honestly, I spend a lot of time answering questions. I feel like I should sometimes have some sort of like a cheat sheet to be like here. Why don't you just go read this and people, you know, here the top 10 things that maybe you should know or think about. There also is, I think this unfair expectation that you are a walking encyclopedia of knowledge of all things Indigenous across the entirety of the country for every single people and that's just not realistic either. So I do find that you're tapped into, you're tapped into, and that you're constantly fighting a battle about your identity, your identity as an Indigenous person, who you are, where you come from, because there is this very pan Indian type of an approach to understanding of wanting to approach Indigenous people.
MH: 39:33 Thank you Sunny, that was grounding. What is the one thing I want the listener to look to know what it's like to be an Indigenous person? I think the one thing I'd like them to know is that we are just like any other Canadian in Canada, we're not special Canadians. We're just Canadians with additional rights that are protected under the Constitution. I think our people have worked hard to get those rights protected. We're like anybody else, we're Canadians we live in our provinces. What's it like to be an Indigenous person? It's a really tough question, I don't care if people don’t understand who I am, of course. My life is full of the things that I have to deal with on a family, personal, professional level, I'm busy doing what I do. In regards to residential schools, I'm over it, like, I'm not a survivor. I'm an indirect survivor my mom attended, my dad attended, some of my brothers have attended and it’s affected my family and for people to expect First Nation people just to get over this, it's kind of silly because I think right these silly schools that were really destructive, really destructive were forced upon Indigenous peoples for over 100 years, 165 years or so they were forced by legislation like the Indian Act. What it's like to be an Indigenous person we have to live under something called Indian Act, that governed the lives of First Nation peoples throughout Canada, and still does today. My nation doesn't live under the Indian Act because we negotiated a treaty, but 99% of the nations in Canada still live under that horrific, racist that segratory piece of legislation today, and that has to stop. That has to be a priority. We have to live on Indian reserves, I hate that term. I'm a First Nation person identified under the Indian act, as a status Indian, and I hate that term. It segregates us, forcibly. We've been forced to live here, non Indigenous Canadians listen to that, many of you think you're not allowed on to Indian reserves and some cases, especially during COVID, you’re not. I shouldn't be traveling into municipal neighborhoods and talking to people and looking at people, I shouldn't do that. I know I shouldn't I don't do that. But we should be very careful about just staying home, especially at times of COVID, but before COVID and after COVID I do hope to see non Indigenous people in my community because we're not identified, living on an Indian Reserve does not define us as a people. I hate that term, I'm not a I'm not on an animal reserve in Africa, I'm not a giraffe or antelope, I don't, I'm not protected by, I won't be. I'm gonna be doing things that better my family, strengthen me as a person. I live in a neighborhood. The administrative boundary used to be and Indian reserve but now it’s treaty settlement lands. I mean I live in a neighborhood, I live in a community, I live with people who are exactly like the people in neighboring municipalities and that's who we are as a people. Don't look at us as people who live on that Indian reserve it's, it's a disgusting term, I really think Canada is one of the most racist countries in the world, because I'm forced to carry this stupid Indian status card in my wallet. And that's really wrong. It's a race card, and Canada still employs a race card, still employs a race system by implementing the Indian reserve system and that’s wrong. I mean, leadership get going with abolishing these institutions and the legislation that has held us down for 200 plus years. The residential school system, the Indian Act and the Indian reserve system have attacked a specific culture. Attacked the language, attacked the culture. It implemented genocide. That's what you need to learn about Indigenous people because those effects have gone to magnitudes that are so destructive for individual families that it's hard to comprehend. It gets really, really complicated and it affects families, it's killed individuals, 1000s of individuals. I mean, the one hope I had growing up was I just wanted to be like anybody else, but living on an Indian Reserve, the opportunities were not there. I live in a community where the capitalist system does not exist. Think about that, don't just think about what I'm saying and then flip to the bloody sports section, don't do that because you're not getting it, if that's what you're doing. Because Indigenous people, the issues relevant to us will affect the Canadian economy. At very high magnitudes. Aboriginal Rights and Title is still an unanswered issue, it needs to be answered. Otherwise you will see the coastal gas links, the roadblocks. The Trans Mountain pipeline and these things will be really really divisive and contentious projects unless they are answered properly. There are ways to get rid of the Indian act, Indian reserve system, but it's not the way, Canada and BC or any of the provinces are approaching it, using things like UNDRIP. There needs to be more thought, more progressive thought to it because First Nation people are tired of dying poor in a rich land, this land is our land, our Aboriginal title supersedes that of provincial crown title, and you watch the movement of these young kids who are going through school, who are working on building on the work of people like Frank Calder and Delgamuukw, and the Supreme Court case. Their title does supersede and they believe that they will die for that. And that's really important, leadership needs to understand and build that bridge. I've seen that bridge burned many many times by just the lack of respect, the lack of acknowledgement, the lack of effort to try to get to know us as a people. In my experience I know First Nations Indigenous people across Canada are very accommodating. I really think that it's doable to initiate those negotiations but we're accommodating. We've been accommodating for 200 years in this province alone, other parts of Canada have had contact much longer. You look at these attacks and wonder why we're so accommodating. It probably baffles a lot of people, there's a lot of anger in First Nations communities because of the way we've been treated. White privilege has been strengthened by the Indian reserve system, the Indian Act, the attacks on our people, it's destroyed many, many, it's created many, many disadvantages that my people have faced so that non Indigenous people could have those really strong advantages. White privilege, you look at the way the RCMP is set up or the way decision makers have set up their committees and the way laws are enacted, it's all geared towards non Indigenous people and First Nation people just are tired of it. We need to look at those systems and see how, we know they're broken. I know that democracy hasn’t worked. I know that across Canada and the US, we're electing popular people, we’re not electing leaders, we need to change that. We need to have leaders to step up with really dynamic ideas that bring people together and make sense for all cultures, not just one culture. We need to come together and communicate and talk about what the problems are, not put profit first, put the environment first, and go from there but it starts with leadership and communication.
AT: 47:22 Thank you both. I'm sitting here, you know feeling my own feelings, and I can feel my belly, sort of churning. And I just want to acknowledge for the listener as well you might also have feelings coming up as you listen to these stories that are just so honestly and directly articulated in this moment and I thank you, Sunny and Maynard for doing that, because I think like that what we need to hear, hear the truth and you both expressed it in very powerful ways. And so I just want the listener to take a deep breath. If you are feeling these things and know that you're safe in this space. And if you need to take a break and come back because I really need you and want you to come back and take in the rest of this dialogue and stay present with us.
Reconciliation is a word that is being tossed around all over the place these days. One thing that I have learned by working in community is that it's never a good idea to assume the meaning of a word, and that it has different meanings for different people. Also, the more I learn about language and its roots, and its ties also to colonial history, I am less and less sure of the language that I use and I'm always questioning and so before we dive into this topic of reconciliation I am curious to hear from both of you. What does reconciliation mean to you, what does it look and feel like, what does reconciliation mean to you?
SL: 49:02 So, reconciliation is a loaded word. People love it and hate it, and as you mentioned, it has so many different interpretations and implementations based on typically a lot of the purposes and the experiences of the individual that is, is harkening on that word. In my experience, this whole process of reconciliation really has been, a lot of my current work, and work that I've been involved in for years really about political reconciliation between two different governance systems right, so there's two different jurisdictions and authorities between that Western or typically Canadian and provincial governance structure and the Indigenous, that inherent ancestral jurisdictions and authorities. So what's really come to light for me during this process of, quote unquote reconciliation, is a bit of a redefinition, in terms of what is and maybe I’ll talk about this later, but what is an Aboriginal right, but also around this whole idea, and what I found really grounding is this principle of walking on two legs. And so the idea of walking on two legs really talks about building that equity and equitable recognition and respect for these two different governance systems or ways of knowing and understanding the world. I've also heard it expressed as two eyed seeing or the two row wampam belt. So throughout Canada there definitely is a number of different ways of representing, what is our nation, according to the Laurier Memorial is also called being like brothers to one another. So when we are talking about walking on two legs, it is about that equity and ensuring that we built the supports for that respectful recognition. Obviously right now, the one leg, the Western leg is like, huge, and it's very well defined and everybody knows what it looks like and how it works and so it's really easy to rely on that leg, but unfortunately I think we were running a lot of one legged races for a while. When it comes to respectful recognition as well, one of the other pieces that I've really drawn on is also this whole concept of what they call ethical space. So with ethical space we were trying to do is that respectful recognition aspect, but being very cognizant that you're not trying to like, integrate, or like mush the two worlds or the two ways of knowing and understanding or the two jurisdictions together, they're very distinct, they are very different, honor them and celebrate them for what they bring. And the fact that they are two different legs and that when they are working together, and they are working together collaboratively or they are in sync, then you really have this, this amazing reconciliation of those two different worlds. So I think that right now for me when I'm looking at, you know, the transformation of government structures, when we've heard Maynard speak to that frustration, that frustration of the privilege and also that judicial, and legislative system that exists within either province or within Canada, it really is a very large, centralized, loves to build its big white ivory towers and hold power at the top. And, of course, like a lot of Indigenous people and our nation's, function from a very decentralized connected to the land paper of approaching governance structure. So that is really foundational to bringing these two different worlds together or these two different governance structures together is, you know, it is something that I am challenged with every day and work that I do, I will continue to be challenged with it. We are looking to tools and instruments like government to government agreements, our nations did not choose to go the route of treaty so we are looking through negotiated agreements as some of those tools to move forward on that. But also one of the, one of the aspects that I think is very absent in terms of Canada or British Columbia’s understanding and their recognition of quote unquote reconciliation is also around the way that Aboriginal rights and title are currently understood within the Canadian legal contracts. And so right now because we very much have you know, section 35 of the Constitution, which protects your Aboriginal rights, and those rights are very much defined as things like hunting and fishing and, you know, those rights that you can go and you can prove in court. And now of course we have this elevation or hopefully this elevation with the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous people which very much looks to, you know, broaden the understanding and scope of, of what Indigenous rights can look like and what that recognition can look like in Canada. Unfortunately, at the same time, what we don't see in Canada what we don't see BC is this recognition of the rights of the territory itself. So of the land, of the resources so you know when we look to those different models and aspects of places like New Zealand where you actually have a recognition of the right of the land itself, because it is going to be here, beautiful Secwepemc'ulecw whatever part of beautiful, the beautiful Canadian world that you live in right now is Indigenous land, and it has an ancestral connection to those individuals, and that land, those territories, those will be there, hopefully forever. And really, it is not about you and me as individuals, I have rights and you have rights and he's gonna make decisions and everything like that. It's about how we come together and define a new model, about being stewards, it's about that relationship and that responsibility that we have to that territory, that we have to those future generations. And when we start to approach Aboriginal rights and title from a place of recognition of the rights of the lands and territories, I think that we'll start to see a really transformational shift in terms of how we can reconcile these two different jurisdictions.
MH: 55:52 I think for me, I think it's going from someplace really bad, really negative, really ugly all that negative things, putting the work in, demonstrating some really, really good principles and actually reconciling and coming to a good place. For me, reconciliation can happen on an individual level, or community to community level and I'll speak to both. I know it's a buzzword. It's a word that's been used many, many times since, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I really look to people like Murray Sinclair, and Phil Fontaine and Bill Wilson, looking at who they are as people, who they are as leaders and watch them on YouTube. I've been to YouTube. I love going on YouTube and listening to people talk about the issues relevant to Indigenous people, but I look to Murray Sinclair and some of his words. Phil Fontaine and his journey to the Vatican, those are two stories. I listened to people who have those types of stories. They've lived it, they've gone through and I've talked to people in my community. I've talked to my Mom. There's that individual reconciliation. The term came from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Reconciliation for individuals survivors and they have to go through a journey that reconciles their history with the trauma inflicted by priests and nuns and administrators and non Indigenous people who were put in positions of authority, put in parental positions and they abused those positions and really devastated these individuals as five year olds. Think about that. I think about my daughter, she's 20. I think about what my Mom went through as a five year old. I look at how she was forced to leave her home. Think about that, don't go to the sports section here. Think about this, this is what happened 150,000 plus times in Canada. This happened, forced to leave your communities, forced to leave your parents. She talks about an Indian agent and the captain of the barge boat coming to collect her and my, my grandparents were forced to turn her over to these two white men, and they were going to take her away for 10 months. Now, I'm thinking about this, I'm going to, if those two gentlemen came to my door to collect my daughter today in 2020, they would not leave my property alive, and this is what should have happened in 1939 when this took place. They should have been stopped. And if they weren't stopped. That's why the education system in Canada has failed First Nation Indigenous people, it has failed us. Those things happen, and how do you correct something like that, because the damage is done. If your culture has been attacked for 200 years, if your culture has your language, you've been forced to forget your language by legislation, then you can tell me to get over it. But you have no right to tell First Nation people to get over it. If your culture has not been specified, and you've not been forced to live on something as stupid as an Indian reserve. You have no right to ask any Indigenous people to get over it, so stop doing that. Until you've demonstrated that your culture has been attacked. My culture has been attacked and my words, please don't let them offend you. My really harsh words are meant for leadership. They are not meant for individual parents in Canada, that's not reconciliation, and I have anger issues that I have to work through with what it's how it's affected my mum, her relationship with her parents and her grandparents and all of her kids, my siblings, that's what I'm going through so if I come across as angry, I apologize, but I I'm passionate about this issue because it's in First Nations and Indigenous communities across Canada, it's there, you will meet people who've been affected by the stupidity of leadership from 20 years ago, 100 years ago - it's there. The Indian residential school system destroyed the structure of families and you don't correct that in one generation, you correct it, it will take 100 years to fix the damage that was done. So try to think about those things when you see a First Nation person on skid row in Vancouver and you think about the type of reconciliation he's put himself through, many people don't succeed in reconciling what they've been forced to live through, because it's not just one instance. I think about my Mom, the Sechelt Indian residential school, and all the instances that caused trauma, it's not one. It's not 150 instances, there are probably 1000s of instances, there were 1000s of abusive situations because how does, how do you expect a five year old, a six year old, seven year old child to walk through and survive that day at a residential school without a specific parent watching out for them. My daughter would never ever go to a residential school, because I remember the structure she lived under going to school growing up. Every day she knew when breakfast was, she knew when she had to go to the school bus, she knew the importance of schools and education. She understood all the issues that were going on in TV because we'd have conversations. My Mom did not have that benefit, she lost that bond with her parents. And if your parents, you lost that bond with your parents then, unless you walk in my shoes or the shoes of Indigenous people then talk to us, but don't criticize if you haven't been put through these devastating, really, really destructive instances because they were destructive. Now for me, reconciliation is just educating and learning. Please do that, use YouTube and listen to people who have gone and published their stories, they talk about what they've been through. Reconciliation is simply educating and learning. It's that simple. I have witnessed one instance where a community has reconciled its history with another community. My community signed a community accord in 2003 with the city of Palm River. It's a very good story it's going, and these communities looked at their history and they went from a bad place, went through many meetings, they learned about each other, they use the media, and they learned about each other. The fear, the suspicion went down, the education learning went up, and today it's one of the best places to coexist. It is a really nice thing to see. We need to see more relationships in Canada that follow these simple principles and it's just communication, respect, and acknowledgement - it's that simple, leadership and there are many examples of individual Canadians in leadership positions who do get it, so don't think that I'm attacking non Indigenous people because reconciliation is not about shame or guilt or trying to make you feel guilty or apologies. I'm not looking at anybody, I'm looking at you as parents, try to understand what we've been through and talk to us and don't be afraid to ask questions, but it's not about it, I'm not expecting an apology from every Canadian citizen, that is not reconciliation. Reconciliation is simply coming together and creating something, what Canada really should be. I hope that clarifies.
AT: 103:29 Thank you, Maynard. I really appreciate the way that you, and Sunny too, can bring these challenging topics to people in a way that they might understand it even though they have not experienced it, and I think that's just so important for this dialogue. Thank you for your expressions of what reconciliation is. I think that's really, really important and also a task for all of us to ask ourselves, what does that mean for us and what are we willing to commit to. When you are looking forward now and doing the work that you're doing, seeing the things that you are seeing and what is evolving. What is it that is giving you hope right now in terms of reconciliation, in terms of this journey that you are on?
MH: 104:18 I think for me it's my daughter. She gives me hope. And I kind of live through her. She's a real inspiration to me, I really look at her as a 20 year old, she's living in today's world, she's, she's created her own advantages. She's really strengthened herself as a person, she's my role model. My mum is my hero. She's (daughter) my role model in terms of. She's gone to Pearson college grade 11 and 12 and first year University and she's just smart, she's mature, all the things that I was not as an 18,19, 20 year old and she's a classical pianist and when she chooses to do something she just does it. A quick story, when she was young, I think 10 or 11 years old. She felt there was not enough time in the day, so she started getting up earlier, and for a whole year she got up at like 6am. Every day she got up at 6am and she started getting up earlier, I had to tell her to, she was getting up earlier than 6:30am because I couldn't wake up that early and I had to tell her to stop getting up earlier, but she did that for an entire year. It’s a real demonstration of the strength of her mind at that young age to do that, that's always stood out for me. What has transformed me and my journey of reconciliation, I am hopeful. I look at my daughter and her perspective and her leadership and all not only her but all her peers in her community, the people she grew up with these are bright kids, and I look at them and I, I see hope because they're healthier, they're one step away from residential schools and traumas. They're one step away from the Indian Reserve System, all the things that have been obstacles. They're smarter, they're educated, they're not going to stand for the life we live, they're going to do things differently. They're going to bring us to that next step. But my daughter is my role model and she's been taking piano since a very young age and I've always used this as a prop, bag pipes. That's one of my contributions to reconciliation is that I'm learning about the Scottish culture. Like I said, reconciliation should be a two way street and it's not about white people learning about the Indigenous people and being forced to learn about us. It's not right. We need to learn about other cultures as well and I've always brought my daughter up to respect other cultures and I’m proud of her for doing that. She's a very respectful person. If she's in a position of leadership so she won't be part of that document, for lack of leadership, she'll be there and affect change, but she respects other cultures, at the very highest level and just proud of her in that way and me doing this, it's very hard I've been taking lessons for three years and very difficult to keep up with this, a lot of work blowing into this silly thing and then, it's forcing you to learn about the Scottish culture. I have gone through ancestry.ca and I think I'm 10% Scottish, And I found that out after I started taking lessons and so it's my commitment, I'm going to learn about that culture and my pipe master is a 70 plus year old pipe master, like he's been doing playing the bagpipes since 14. So it's a privilege to learn under people like Ian Richmond, who's he's he's got so much knowledge that, and he's taken the time to spend with me and I'm learning about a different culture and I, I want other Indigenous people to learn about your neighbors as well. I really think that's a necessary step. And it's been transformational. It makes me respect other cultures even more, but you have to have the knowledge and my ignorance is coming down, and it can only help, it's possible.
SL: 108:01 I definitely follow a lot of, a lot of what Maynard is speaking about in terms of that hope really being the next generation. I think that right now, again, just kind of looping back to where I started from with the work that I do right now with Qwelmínte te Secwepemc. Our intern program, you know, we bring together cohorts of Indigenous university students, in a very unique mentorship, to work together as part of our government to government agreements in connection with Secwepemc law. We've done this for, this is going to be the third year, and seeing those individuals grow over the course of those, the summer projects, also seeing them evolve in their careers. We’ve been very lucky to have a number of them stay on and work with me and my as a part of my team, to see these amazing young Indigenous professionals, walking on two legs, building those next generations of agreements bringing together, building the bridges, really being taking on that (Secwepemctsin word) role of bringing together Chief Elk and Chief Swan. Absolutely, that gives me hope for the future of where we're going in terms of that more formal quote unquote reconciliation aspect. My hope for the future also is very much, you know, within me, within my, my home, my family, and that's with Raven of course. So Raven, when it comes to looking to the future, though our intern program, I was we're connected with another amazing young Secwepemc youth who is very active in his community. Also, in terms of hunting, and so, my son, we were fortunate enough to go out together last fall and Raven, through that hard work and dedication harvested his first moose last year. In Secwepemc'ulecw, beautiful Secwepemc'ulecw, in connection with another, you know, amazing young, young man and so I look at those experiences, and I look at that knowledge transfer and I look at, honestly sometimes how hard it is that we have to work to stay connected to place to space to our territories to our responsibilities, and it's not easy. It's not easy, but when you are on horseback out hunting with your son, in your ancestral lands, and you have your, your Dad with you and your family with you, and you're surrounded by the stories and the laughter and the love of place, I can think of no better way to live my life. Definitely my hope for the future is about maintaining and growing that connection in a way that's going to ensure that Raven will take this, this work that I've done, and bring all of his amazing capacities and knowledge and abilities and things like that, and take it to the next level and so I think that that hopeful future for me is about passing that baton, a bit, but realizing that humbling myself I'm just one person, I'm trying to live a very simple very humble life. But the best thing I can do is to help them, is to help them grow into these amazing individuals because they are going to do so much more than we have. So that is my hope for the future. All of those amazing young individuals, Raven included, move us forward in a way that I think is just going to make the world a better place.
AT: 1:11:53 Well I know what my next circle is going to be, it's going to be with your kids. Gosh, amazing. Sunny, Maynard, thank you so much for your time today and for being here and being willing to speak from your heart. I have no doubt that this conversation has shifted me, and I know it is shifting our listener as they take it in right now and so thank you for that gift, it means a lot to me. I wish you both well and thank you so much.
SL: Thank you.
MH: Great to see you Sunny. Thank you, Ame-Lia.
I'm now passing the talking piece to you. If you feel called to put your voice in this circle, please head to www.humconsulting.ca/podcast and share your story there. I cannot wait to hear what has come up for you as you have listened to what has been shared here today.
I wish you love and joy beyond your wildest imagination. Thank you so much for being here in the Circle of Change.
I also want to express my gratitude to the following peeps: Circle of Change is recorded on the Lekwungen territory and I am so grateful to live on this land. Our opening and closing music was created by the talented E.Rol Beats. You can find his creations at erolbeats.com. And special thanks to my coach, Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions for bringing this podcast to life.
Until next time, Ciao.